Should I Stay or should I Leave?....

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Should I Stay?... Or.... Should I Leave?

Poll ended at Thu Jun 06, 2019 8:22 am

Stay in the HPAC/ACVL
8
73%
Leave the HPAC/ACVL
3
27%
 
Total votes: 11

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Martin
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Should I Stay or should I Leave?....

Post by Martin »

I guess for the benefit of those who may not know me (which is probably much more of a benefit then you could imagine…) here is a short bio…

My name is Martin Henry, I’m a grumpy old hang glider pilot that has been flying since the early 70’s and have pretty much been a member of the HPAC/ACVL for most of the years that it has existed. I currently fly a rigid wing hang glider and on occasion, drag out my paraglider for little airtime. I have held positions on pretty much every level from local all the way up to the President of the HPAC/ACVL. I have been known to rant and rave about various causes and issue within our sport but like most that do volunteer to “serve”, did so with the best of intentions.

My most recent rantings included discussions involving last year’s financial plan for the HPAC/ACVL and the services this association provides. The essence of my complaint is the organization is becoming a bureaucratic beast that will consume all that we pour into it and through the years is yielding less and less to the members it was intended to serve. It is my opinion, the HPAC/ACVL is now focused on “Paper” and not on “Pilots”.

I guess I better insert this personal confession… I was probably responsible for this current state of affairs. Back when I was the HPAC/ACVL prezz, I implemented the “paid administrators” position. At the time, the intent was to compensate an individual for the basic running of the association. The position was intended to deal with our paperwork and membership services ( lick stamps and mail out our newsletter ….bet not many of you knew we actually had a publication?). Yup, it was pretty “Micky Mouse” and had some serious shortcomings, but it did work and it did provide basic membership services. Somewhere along the way, the administration became the “Thing” that ate “our” association.

Ok....., so what’s my gripe now?

It's sort of an accumulation of the same festering theme, what do I “get” for being a member of the HPAC/ACVL? (old people like to fester and enjoy being entrenched in hopeless positions…..). After all, HPAC/ACVL wants $175 to be a member…. So what’s in it for “me”?
Apparently less and less every year (while the administration takes more and more?).

What has brought me to my current position was my expired membership. It got me thinking, there is only one remaining product the HPAC/ACVL provides its general membership and that is our insurance. Well the value of this insurance is suspect at best and is often the only stick the administration has at hand to “make” you join, it got me thinking (never a good thing….), the industry standards for the sale of an insurance product is to make sure you know when your coverage has lapsed. The insurance industry wants to make darn sure they won’t be extending any coverage if you don’t pay your bill… Members of the HPAC/ACVL do not receive membership renewal reminders.

If you do a search of the HPAC/ACVL database, with a back date of one month you can see who has expired, for BC alone, there are 40 members that are expired (membership wise ;-) ).

https://www.hpac.ca/pub/?pid=145

Run a 6 month window, and the number jumps to 70+. True, the bulk of your search will yield expired memberships that are within the one month window but also true is there is a substantial group of members that sit in a 3 month search. They legitimately may not be aware their membership has expired.

What amazes me is how the association that has what could only be described as a voracious appetite for revenue does not consider membership renewal notification as a key and very valuable service? Also, does not apparently view the lapse in insurance as a valid risk to the association?

In comparison, down in the "Excited States of America", USHPA starts sending email notification notices out at least 3 months in advance and hounds you with reminders right up until you finally fork over the payment! Oh, by the way, USHPA provides insurance, 12 magazines, a E-News letter and enough notices regarding governance to choke a horse (in that vain, USHPA is pushing to equal the dysfunctional nature of the HPAC/ACVL? )

Ok, what’s the point of this post?

I don’t like the direction the HPAC/ACVL has gone and I don’t feel it serves and or provides me as a member anything of value. I wish more people would care but it seems its much easier to just join and not give a crap about what’s going on. As the saying goes, “Fair enough” and to each his/her own.

What is not fair is the members having to put up with people like me bitching and moaning about our dysfunctional association. So here is your opportunity to shut me up!

I’m running a poll… “Should I STAY, or Should I LEAVE”?

I figure in recent years, I have only stayed so that I have a right to voice my opinion. There is little other reason to stay. Yah sure, the HPAC/ACVL can blather on about how important their insurance is and how important it is to support your national association, but truth is, about the only thing your supporting now is the “thing”. I have insurance from USHPA, I have my USHPA ratings and for anything else I will “self-insure”.. I get the USHPA rag, the USHPA E-news letter and look forward to the never ending “Governance” debacle….

After discussion with a few other rigid pilots (The 3 of us in B.C.), We think its time to form our own Canadian Rigid Wing Association. We won’t have a news letter, membership cards or any of that other crap but will get together occasionally to discuss things that include flying and not paper.

So? Should I stay? Or should I Leave?

Cheers
Martin Henry (currently ex-member HPAC/ACVL #02)
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Ihor
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Re: Should I Stay or should I Leave?....

Post by Ihor »

A while back when HPAC didn't have out-of-country insurance coverage I was under the mistaken impression that USHPA covered me insurance-wise when out of the country. CJ set me straight and their business office confirmed it. You have to be a resident of the US to qualify for out of country insurance. If you're relying on USHPA to cover your Canadian flying adventures through your Mansion in Mansfield part-time address I'd check to make sure.
As for the rest of it: I'm out, goodluck.
silentflight
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Re: Should I Stay or should I Leave?....

Post by silentflight »

Yeeeesh Martin ! I see you signed this as Martin Henry and not Comrade Martin . Does this mean you wrote this without Scotch ! Get back on the hooch man . You are going through withdrawl ! :P :P
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Martin
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Re: Should I Stay or should I Leave?....

Post by Martin »

I don't drink anymore... or any less.....

Comrade Martin
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pecofly
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Re: Should I Stay or should I Leave?....

Post by pecofly »

Hey Martin Henry ( ya grumpy old fart ) self ordained
You been around long enough now to deserve that title ( with all due respect )
I remember buying my first " high performance wing " from you and Mia ( WW Duck )
Also, I remember the first time I ever heard of you.
It was at the LZ in Cawston probably 1976 and you were the only glider still way up high in the sky as pointed out by someone on the ground that knew you.
Back in the day when as many as 50 or more pilots would come up from the coast to fly here.
Quite a spectacle back then .
Back in the days when no one had reserves or insurance.
Anyways, as it is, any written word can be misconstrued , I wish to specify here and now, this letter does not point at you with anything at all but, " Respect " ( Thank you for bringing up this matter )
You along with a few others have seen much in the almost 50 years of flying these things.
So with that said, I wish to serve these thoughts.
As I have roughly counted at present, we have a total number of apprx 1100 members in HPAC
At $175/member , that equates to roughly $195,000 as the total income to HPAC .
Are there any other Revenues?
At any rate, this does not seem like a large sum of money to operate and pay folks to represent and look after our interests and provide clubs with upgrade funds etc.
In fact, to me it seems quite inadequate,, but I have no idea how these funds are allocated ( since you were president at one time ) I imagine you know.
At $175/member that equates to " .47 cents per day " to fly and feel like we have something there to protect us if we cause damage to something or someone?
I am willing to bet there are many of us members who would think nothing of buying a Latte most days for $ 3-4 bucks and not even bat an eye.
Seriously $.47 cents per day is what we have to fork out of our paycheck for this service.
Now I like to save money where I can
But anyways to keep a long story short ,
I disagree with the notion that we pay too much for this service.
"I am staying"
Hope you are all well and flying much
Pete Rasmussen
Last edited by pecofly on Sun May 26, 2019 6:06 am, edited 1 time in total.
lurker1
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Re: Should I Stay or should I Leave?....

Post by lurker1 »

Martin has done a good job of describing most of what is wrong, Pete just completed the story. everyone is so flush with money what the hell does it matter what you get for your money! I'm not flush with money, and why not get value for money. OK, there might be some value in the $50 for insurance, but $120 for administation ... and the paid position was double salary because of web site development, which never happened .. guess I'm hung up on integrity, something we used to be able to count on, we simply knew, this special community would look after each other .. those were the days ...
the only freakin reason I will renew this year is because it is a courtesy to Randy at the Freedom Flight Park ...
I was labelled a lurker years ago, well, I'm not hiding behind my computer screen, I'd say this much and more directly to the 'powers that be' but it would surely be a waste of time, they have made their agenda clear ...

I vote to leave, but I am willing to pay for insurance .. the best thing our membership could do is embark on a tax revolt, where we pay the insurance fee and nothing more until some new direction can be demonstrated ...

one of these days I'll get back to cloudbase, a process that nicely leaves all these earthly cares behind

John McClintock #319
push out in lift
George Borradaile
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Re: Should I Stay or should I Leave?....

Post by George Borradaile »

As I have not been a member since 2003, I actually have no right to comment on the affairs of the club. Having said that, if the insurance is only $50, $175 does seem somewhat excessive for services rendered.

As an ex-hang glider competitor and father of a current competitor, I still follow the competition results. I am always disappointed by the lack of competition notices on the HPAC website, and also as to the lack of information as to where to find out where daily results are posted.

Unfortuneately hang gliding is a sport in decline since my days. A little more publicity for at least the major events (hg nationals start today) may help to get more awareness and interest in this amazing activity. Little things like that may give members the feeling that they are getting a better bang for their buck.

Anyone know where results can be found?

George Borradaile #53
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soaringman
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Re: Should I Stay or should I Leave?....

Post by soaringman »

HPAC is so Canadian it's like CBC without the funding.

If you want to fly Pemberton, Woodside Bridal etc.. you kneed it right ?

It's paid out some great claims over the years ?
FlyTriGuy
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Re: Should I Stay or should I Leave?....

Post by FlyTriGuy »

Martin, I know that as you get older(I'm 81) it becomes more and more difficult remember things . However, when you drive your car you carry your drivers licence and insurance, and when you fly you should carry your HPAC membership card. Clearly stated on that is the expiry date. Why would you need a reminder to renew?
Further, since everyone flies with equipment which costs thousands of dollars, why would you begrudge paying $175 per year to support the National organization of our sport? HPAC insurance is recognized thoughout Europe (I've used it in Italy and Spain) and I believe in most of the civilized world except the US. No comment there! That alone is worth the price of admission.
Finally, and to answer your question, Please STAY. Grumpy old men have a vluable role to play in any organization, even if only to remind the rest of the members NOT to become grumpy old men like you and me.
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Martin
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Re: Should I Stay or should I Leave?....

Post by Martin »

soaringman wrote: Sat May 25, 2019 7:18 pm HPAC is so Canadian it's like CBC without the funding.

If you want to fly Pemberton, Woodside Bridal etc.. you kneed it right ?

It's paid out some great claims over the years ?
There are multiple answers to your question about needing insurance. If your organization has negotiated the inclusion of HPAC insurance into an agreement, then yes. This would be as per the request of a private land owner or administrative authority. Often the HPAC likes to suggest it has the authority to mandate insurance but has no such legal authority to do so. One could go so far as to say, if your not a member of the HPAC, your under no obligation to follow its rules. As a pilot you "should" take responsibility for any financial risk you expose the public to on either public or private lands. BTW, there is nothing to stop you from presenting your own risk waiver or self insured options, of course our sites are flown all the time by uninsured pilots and there is nothing the HPAC is capable of doing anything about. Just the fact the HPAC suggest otherwise opens up a liability risk to the association which would not be backed by our insurer.

Truth is, the HPAC likes to use the insurance as a stick to make people join. Funny thing is, the more reliant it becomes on that insurance the more likely it is to need it.

On the insurance topic, I am faced with an interesting challenge.... One of my greatest financial risks at my local site is being struck by one of your typical kamikaze Russian top landing PG pilots who like to pile into launch anyway they can (regardless how many pilots might be occupying the launch/setup area). If I'm a member of the HPAC, and one of these loons pile into my $30,000 rigid wing I'm pooched (as most of them are homeless and live out of their cars).... As a member of the HPAC, I'm a member and a named participant. If I form my own association (of one ;-) ) I'm not part of the HPAC's so called insurance... the policy will need to "buck-up" (insert a team of lawyers here....).

Martin
Last edited by Martin on Mon May 27, 2019 7:04 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Martin
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Re: Should I Stay or should I Leave?....

Post by Martin »

George Borradaile wrote: Sat May 25, 2019 1:05 pm As I have not been a member since 2003, I actually have no right to comment on the affairs of the club. Having said that, if the insurance is only $50, $175 does seem somewhat excessive for services rendered.

As an ex-hang glider competitor and father of a current competitor, I still follow the competition results. I am always disappointed by the lack of competition notices on the HPAC website, and also as to the lack of information as to where to find out where daily results are posted.

Unfortuneately hang gliding is a sport in decline since my days. A little more publicity for at least the major events (hg nationals start today) may help to get more awareness and interest in this amazing activity. Little things like that may give members the feeling that they are getting a better bang for their buck.

Anyone know where results can be found?

George Borradaile #53
George! I'm surprised your vision is still good enough to read... especially at your age!

Yah, the price is not really the issue for me, its more about how the HPAC is not getting better. Its getting worse, less and less service and information is getting to the members. (Rumor has it that there is a Canadian Hang Gliding Nationals going on right now?.... you wouldn't know it by going to the HPAC web site, events page!). They can't even be bothered to send out a note reminding you that your insurance is about to expire.. which is why dozens of people are flying uninsured right now. On top of that they have offer no news letter and have poured thousands of our members dollars into web page fiasco's and Parks Canada access (for a handful of pilots) and still have nothing to show for it.

Another example of how the "thing" prioritizes paper over pilots was a recent correspondence that I had with a super new hang pilot in the lower mainland, been flying for a couple years, doing very well and truly the kind of pilot our sport desperately needs. This pilot tried to renew his membership and was denied because he did not have a rating. Seems, something got lost in the machine, an instructor failed to do their job and the paper work was not done. The denial of membership is hardly a welcoming move on the part of our diligent bureaucrat in charge of our membership. The pilot was bummed out, fortunately I explained the HPAC is dysfunctional, jump through the hoops and if in the meantime a good flying day comes along, go flying.

Simply put, my b**** is simple the point that I no longer want to continue to feed the "thing".

Good to see your still alive!

Cheers

Martin
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pep
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Re: Should I Stay or should I Leave?....

Post by pep »



Video aside... the only way to fix "it" is to be part of "it", we do need participation to have these open discussions and, as a member of the association, figure out a way and be part of the solution.
No-one will bring a magic solution and from one day to the next all will be good, we will have to work at this for a while.
Lets ask the board of directors to get the forum fix and start communicating on it with the rest of us more often, letting us know the discussion that is going on and the resolutions been implementing. Today this can be done from any computer or phone in any place of Canada, no need to have special meeting for it.
With that in place, other things will follow (I think).
Pedro Pedersen ( :hg )
“Once you have tasted flight, you will forever walk the earth with your eyes turned skyward,
for there you have been, and there you will always long to return.”
Leonardo da Vinci
tnankie
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Re: Should I Stay or should I Leave?....

Post by tnankie »

Does it make a difference?
Wont we (WCSC) have to put up with your rants anyway?
So it really makes no difference to me whether you leave or not.
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Martin
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Re: Should I Stay or should I Leave?....

Post by Martin »

tnankie wrote: Mon May 27, 2019 9:37 pm Does it make a difference?
Wont we (WCSC) have to put up with your rants anyway?
So it really makes no difference to me whether you leave or not.
True! That's because the WCSC does contribute to the flying community and does provide a service.... good value. Sad tho... It would be nice to know you would miss me....

Cheers

Martin
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