If there is no opposition, the station will be mounted on Woodside during March.
We will evaluate the project this year and see it goes and what the benefits are. The outcome could be anything ranging from buying a professional grade station, sharing the cost of operating this one, or simply end the project.
Cost:
$400 to build
Monthly:
$10 Data SIM card (alternatively $20 unlimited SMS)
less than $10 servers (kindly sponsored by my company Zaber Technologies)
Maintenance:
$30 Battery replacement (1-2 years)
$100 Anemometer replacement (? years)
Commercial solution (https://holfuy.com/en)
$1500 to purchase
Monthly:
$10 Data SIM card
Maintenance:
$155 Anemometer replacement (? years)
The commercial station is of course better in almost every way and could be a viable option for the future.
Currently, I am funding the project from my pocket thus taking all the risk. If the project turns out successful, I will ask the club and BCHPA for funding.
Voice your opinion!
Last edited by Martin Zak on Sun Feb 28, 2021 2:12 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Great idea martin, thank you very much for putting the effort into this. I guess the challenge will be to find a relevant spot that won't have a local bias in wind or temp, that will be out of the way of pilots. Maybe near the windsock? also is there any way to make it less vulenerable to vandalism?
Tom Kitto wrote: ↑Sun Feb 28, 2021 2:00 pm
Great idea martin, thank you very much for putting the effort into this. I guess the challenge will be to find a relevant spot that won't have a local bias in wind or temp, that will be out of the way of pilots. Maybe near the windsock? also is there any way to make it less vulenerable to vandalism?
Hey Tom,
I've noticed the windsock is sometimes being taken down for students. Additionally, I am concerned about potential injury during takeoff or top landing.
The bias is a thing. I'd like to take the measurement a put adjust coefficient or at least a warning for people to understand that it may undermeasure.
Vandalism is a big issue too. I, unfortunately, don't have a better idea than trying it out. Anything we do to make it less vulnerable seems to result in less accessibility for maintenance and installion. Another option is to move the station to e.g. Bridal Falls where there is less risk. That will probably happen if the station gets vandalized over the year. I will probably put a sign stating that it has no re-sell value and it's being constantly monitored.
100% will get destroyed by vandals if visible from launch. I suggest at the top of a tall tree off to the NW by a couple hundred meters. Will need rope access to install it.
Does it just do wind and temp? Probably no chance of a webcam?
Grumpy old man here.... If you put something up, they will shoot it... they will shoot it, even if they can't see it. (Tho gunfire has gone way down since the signs went up)... still.. If we decide to waste money on a internet toy... put up multiple fake cam/weather stations.. maybe the A-holes will run out of ammo before they find the real target.
With all the weather forecasting that is out there its so sad that pilots can't just use their brains to figure out if they want to go flying. Sure its real cute if you sit on the toilet and check out a weather station at your favorite site... thing is, at some point in time you need to actually just get out there. Chances are you'll your just as likely to drive out anyway and get skunked because the weather changed or you miss a great day cuz you trusted some piece of technology.
The best technology out there is "Herd Technology"... most of it is available on WhatsApp or Line (if you don't want to use your own brain)... you just follow the herd to get to the hot site of the day.
Hello Martin, naive pilot here. That was properly grumpy but I appreciate your points.
In my mind, this project is exactly about using our "brains". When we go out there it's always a bet and the more information we have the better bet we can make. The weather station is just another piece of the puzzle. (I should mention that I mostly hike up there so It's a lot of effort for a bet). And yes, ultimately it's about being out there, that's exactly why I put this on the website "The data are provided without any warranty. Do not rely on the data to assess the risk of flying." (aka use your own brains)
It's also about learning. I want to understand and study the weather patterns and the influence of different variables. All this because I want to be a better pilot and use my "brains" better. A weather station seems like a good way to collect more data, compare and analyze.
In my opinion, "Herd Technology" is not great. I value other pilots' experience, but everybody has a different tolerance of risk, different assessments, different gliders. I don't want to miss a good day because somebody posts a grumpy biased opinion. I want to make a good decision on hard data rather more than on our natural herd behavior. Because I have my own "brains"! Also, with the growth of our sport, the channels are pretty congested and we may be reaching the point where it's not all that viable. I want our community to continue growing and in a safe way.
I get it, and must admit the newest economy technology is very affordable compared to the steam / coal powered stuff from the past. Add in the cell conductivity and the communications challenges are easily dealt with. The old Sumas repeater used to go through a turbine every year, and was a nerd fest to get the data to the net. The main point I was making is unless you make it invisible to the wankers, it will become disposable. Can't imagine the new Saddle weather/cam to last long stuck up on a dead communications post...
Still think, information is highly over rated and "Herd Technology" works very well... I find out where everybody is going and go someplace else (the "net" IQ of a large group is the "average" divided by the total group number... )
(by the way... not a total Ludite.... I remotely manage 8 network cameras watching over my private flying site down south... )
Thanks for posting all this info! The poll is a great idea.
As most already know, I'm all for this project and would like to thank you publically for your willingness to share this with the club. It's very important for the community to recognize members who are motivated to make a difference and contribute on their own dime and effort.
Don't worry about 'Grumpy' Martin - He poo-poo's literally everything and I'm pretty sure he'd be opposed to the sun rising every day if he had a say... lol. Right Martin?!?
There's zero doubt that more weather info is good. Personally, I'll be stoked to check daily forecasts against what was actually reported to backtest forecast accuracy on a micro-level. For those of us with considerable opportunity cost to our flying time, optimizing or go/no go decisions is key.
James604 wrote: ↑Mon Mar 01, 2021 2:11 pm
Don't worry about 'Grumpy' Martin - He poo-poo's literally everything and I'm pretty sure he'd be opposed to the sun rising every day if he had a say... lol. Right Martin?!?
Absolutely! Especially when someone wants to spend other peoples money, no matter how trivial it may appear. A little here, a little there... next thing you know when something important comes along and we have blown our savings on pet projects. The budget for this little adventure is approaching $700, or to balance that debt... the income from 17 memberships (BTW, Martin is funding this himself, so not out of the club pockets... which is more or less the same as my private site network cam system, my pleasure my dime. On the other hand there is the potential to set up an expensive commercial setup.... $$$).
These weather stations are tech fluff and disposable. Weather geeks are in their glory with all the live data, they yearn to turn the data into something "important", for a task that is really not that complicated... go flying and deal with the weather when you get there.
Using real time data is hardly useful to someone sitting in there Condo in Vancouver... your either going to go flying (no matter what the data says) or your going to wishfully hope the data improves and go out anyway, or worse just go golfing after becoming overloaded with too much information (and suffer later on when FlyBC site of the day posts how the day unexpectedly turn on and everybody had epic XC's!) .
As to the grumpy old man apposing everything... when the club spends money and or takes actions that effects the community at large, it deserves public exposure and discussion. Little things like "Fire pits" installed on launch (tho the misguided inspiration didn't cost us anything) , funds shared to far off sites of little if any meaningful direct value to most of our members and anything else that dips into our limited reserves....
As to opposing the rising sun? Hardly, that would be like apposing the weather ... no matter how much you know or want to do about it. there is nothing any of us can do to change it ...
Bahhh! Newfangled gadgets these days! Back in the day, Otto Lilienthal bound bamboo and a bedsheet to the horse, gave it a smack n' up the buggy track we went! TCU or not! Then along came the automobile! Bahh!!!! The buggies worked fine!! Now... what's... this... - the internet??!! What's wrong with dippin' a quality quill and some bleached wood pulp?? What frivolous innovation is next? Ripstop?! Dyneema? Varios? More than 20 cells?!! Carbon fiber? New profiles?? Sharknoses??!! GPS trackers? Tailplanes for improved stability?!! Nitinol?! Bahh!!! FFS!
Appealing to the logical fallacy of the status quo being better because "this is how it's always been done..." is precisely what keeps any individual or organization from improving, becoming more efficient, accessible, and growing.
All fun aside, we need to create a fertile environment that champions volunteers who are motivated to make a difference to continue advancing our shared passion of free flight and improve aspects of safety, accessibility, and decision making for all our members. Fiscal management is a top WCSC responsibility and the club is very economically sound. I take this fiduciary duty very seriously. Thanks to the efforts of our community leaders promoting the sport, our growth in members over the years have permitted some economies of scale - members can enjoy more (launches, tenures, events, local information, 'soft' infrastructure like LZ agreements, mentorship programs, hopefully, a wx station or two) - for each of their dollars. Further growth will maintain this trajectory with continued prudent management.
This project is solely the result of hard work, money, and unique expertise, from an exemplary member's selfless dedication who now wants to share that with the club to the benefit of the rest of us. All of this has been at zero cost to the club. Until now, with this project, the cost/benefit of wx stations has been untenable IMHO. It's my belief that the club should support this initiative moving forward, not drop a steamer on it. I'm willing to wager the vast majority of members will agree for the following reasons:
-Will it help pilots make more informed decisions? - Yes
-Will the above lead to more optimal go/no - go decisions? - most likely
-Will it benefit pilots >1hr away? Not nearly as much as the local crew who can sneak in a sled ride here and there when wx is better than a marginal forecast
-Will it help mitigate an element of doubt for less experienced pilots? - absolutely
-Will it help prevent wasted time driving up, finding wind OTB, and having to drive down? - on occasion, absolutely
-Will all of the above contribute, even in a small way, to more airtime and enjoyment and therefore pilot retention and growth of the sport? - probably
-is the cost/benefit worth it? - If the majority of WCSC members are on board, I'll be applying for 50% hardware funding from BCHPA, which amounts to $200 per station. With that covered, assuming the station is operational for +/- 2 years and including data fees, it works out to approximately 7 tenths of a cent/member per day, or about 21 cents/month per member assuming a 365-day data subscription. If we shut down off-season, knock another 20-30% off that. This begs the question, what is our time worth? If a handful of members save just one drive-down per year, what's the opportunity cost of an hour or two of their time? What's the cost of wasted fuel, vehicle wear and tear?
- Will the club hang onto perhaps a few more pilots, long term, who don't grow frustrated in the early stages of their development with wasted time, therefore leading to increased membership fee contribution and increased economies of scale? - Quite possibly.
-Is it a panacea or paradigm shift? - Absolutely not. We're dealing with very economical incremental improvements.
Engaging members and discussing club initiatives is absolutely key, and hence the reason for this discussion. I'm glad to see the level of feedback and input, good and bad, on the various club chats. It's a good thing! Whatever the outcome of this and other initiates, it's fantastic to get members involved in shaping the outcome of their club.
ps: In the interest of an accurate public record regarding site funding decisions, 94% of WCSC members at the AGM voted in favour of Port Alberni. Following considerable discussion, members clearly, transparently, objectively and overwhelmingly stated how they want to shape our shared future. No point shouting into the wind on this one.
James604 wrote: ↑Tue Mar 02, 2021 10:14 pm
Bahhh!.....
Regarding all of the above... A wonderful dissertation indeed
Full of enthusiastic zeal, its pretty obvious James embraces the technology.... but.... pilots are pilots.
They charge out to any piece of high ground to get airtime no matter what the weather. They drive out, hike up and waddle up to launch with hope and optimism. They hope a bad forecast is wrong, they hope a optimistic forecast is right... they sit on launch kicking rocks, talk gear, talk smack and wait... sometimes its the bitter drive/hike down (tho, as they say there is always some damn fool that will "give it a go"!)... sometimes it ends in a stroke of luck that produces an epic flight... to which they will promptly post a gloat out to the rest of the losers that stayed home!
You can fill a pilot with data but you can't make them think. They are all drug addicts... with no rehab available to cure them...
"Live" anything in our "connected" world is purely for entertainment for those who "overthink" what is really a very simple sport. Those devices that provide that information are nothing more then E-junk... easily replaced with a wet finger pointed at the sky.
Comrade Martin
PS: Jeeeesh, can't help but respond to James comments on the AGM vote regarding money that was allocated ( "blown" ) on the Alberni site (way off in the remote hinterlands of Vancouver Island)... to which, of course, I objected.
I would have rather seen the our club spend money on sites that we actually use over money on a site that few if any will ever see... And yes, I received a resounding "smack down" for my position of local fiscal prudence. Oh well, admittedly James is doing a GREAT job (probably deserves a HPAC Masters award for putting up with me?)... tho I would like to think, had the membership actually been informed of the expense, in advance... I might have had a slightly less severe smack down?
As a long time weather station 'operator' I am compelled to offer my thoughts.
Our wind talker on Mt 7 had been operating for more than 12 years without vandalism. Although there was one incident when the pole was bent by someone doing a 'pole dance' or something like that. But the equipment wasn't damaged. There were two lightning strikes that cost a bit of money to fix it though. The solar panel was stolen in the third or fourth year and we didn't replace it. That meant changing the batteries more often. We found out that one car battery was enough to power it for an entire summer season. This resulted in hauling a battery up in the spring and down in the fall. The biggest difficulties were always internet connection and the hosting website related issues.
Following some user discontent about the website host operator demanding a 'pay per use' situation that unit was basically mothballed.
A flying friend from Fernie offered to install a Holfuy unit at his own cost. He set up a go-fund me site for it and at last report has almost enough money to install a second unit here. This thing has been great. It runs all year, no large car batteries to replace, with very few problems. It is connected through cell phone signal and has had 99% service for us. I use it quite a bit in winter as well for wind and more importantly for temperature information. This is in regards to the freezing level and snow conditions for ski touring.
So I guess my point here is that vandalism of this equipment hasn't been an issue. Even though the outhouse and HG ramp have had some abuse in the past. And the reliability of the Holfuy has been well worth the extra money. Lucky for us, our benefactor had the motivation to upgrade us.
Very different clientele at Woodside, unfortunately.
Webcam was gone in a couple of months.
Outhouse shot at pretty much every year and toppled over last year (who in the world topples over outhouses???)
Trucks and quads driven onto the carpet.
Huge rocks (installed up to prevent vehicle access to launch) pulled into the middle of the parking lot.
We count ourselves lucky if fire pits are not ON the carpet. New ones appear weekly when the weather is nice.
Nails from pallets, broken bottles and all sort of garbage left behind for us to clean up.
Few years ago damage to a brand new wing from smoldering wood (Bridal, not Woodside).
If there is any chance for a weather station to survive it needs to be hidden from view and difficult to access.
But how hide it and get meaningful wind information?
Top of South Knoll or the Radio towers on the North Cliffs may be options.
Data 12 hours old... did somebody kick the cord out of the server, or is someone going to climb a tree? .... (big weather event last night, did not see anything too strong prior to death).
. Coordination of effort. I will post here updates.
but I appreciate your points.
) 