| View previous topic :: View next topic |
| Author |
Message |
midtoad
Joined: 03 Aug 2004
Posts: 32
Location: Invermere, BC
|
 Posted: Sun Jul 18, 2010 2:40 pm Post subject: Day 1 at the Willi: Big Air and Big Distance |
 |
|
Day 1 at the Willi meet in Golden started out with a big crowd, big air, big distance, and carnage.
First thing in the morning, a novice pilot with about 10 high flights decided to investigate the canyon below launch... in a lee-side north wind. Soon the helicopter rescue service was picking him out of the trees.
Once the airspace was reopened at 13:00, pilots launched and right away specked out. Thermals were strong - I recorded 8m/s on several occasions - and cloudbase was high: I climbed to 4000m a couple of times. There was also a bit of a nasty shear around 2200m, and I experienced a thermal-induced full stall (1st time ever in 20+ yrs of PG) while climbing through it at 8 m/s.
I landed in Invermere along with two hangs, Fiona and Jason Dyer, but Max Fanderl and Ron Ford landed near Swansea, while Brett Yeates made it to Canal Flats on his PG and landed by two hangs, Rob Clarkson and Mike Schulte. Lots of pilots down near Spur Valley and Edgewater. Several had personal bests.
Back up-valley, another pilot was flying on speed-bar low down (so I'm told), and suddenly took a big fold which turned into a cravatte and a spin. She got her reserve out but hit the ground near Campbell Road while still spinning. She drove herself to the hospital for a check-up so I'm hoping she's okay.
And in the evening an intermediate pilot flew straight at the power lines in the calm LZ from some distance away, apparently able to scream but for some inexplicable reason failing to take ample opportunity to turn away. After bouncing off and breaking the power line (which knocked out power to the neighbourhood), she was luckily essentially unhurt, but we got a visit from RCMP, Ambulance Services, and BC Hydro, in succession.
With CBs and gust fronts in the forecast for today, I wonder what day 2 will bring ? (I decided to stay on the ground after an early-morning speed-gliding flight with Scott and Tanya, and Diane and Raśl in full-size PGs).
_________________
HG: none right now, PG: Niviuk Hook S, Little Cloud Spiruline 18 |
|
| Back to top |
|
 |
midtoad
Joined: 03 Aug 2004
Posts: 32
Location: Invermere, BC
|
| Posted: Sun Jul 18, 2010 9:35 pm Post subject: Day 2 at the Willi: more of the same |
|
|
I just heard from Jason Snyder that Day 2 at the Willi had more of the same rough air as yesterday. There was 17 degrees difference in temperature between 6000' and 12000' (Penny Power told me this evening that yesterday that difference was a massive 19 degrees!). There were numerous CBs crossing the valley by mid-afternoon; hopefully all the pilots were on the ground by then.
_________________
HG: none right now, PG: Niviuk Hook S, Little Cloud Spiruline 18 |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Martin
Joined: 03 Sep 2003
Posts: 680
|
| Posted: Mon Jul 19, 2010 6:31 am Post subject: |
|
|
Dumb as door wax..... Oh look at the pretty clouds... I've always got my SPEED BAR ?.... I'm so fast on my hang? .... The place is too big for most who fly there.
"Say whats that mountain goat doing up here in the clouds ? "
Comrade Martin |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
midtoad
Joined: 03 Aug 2004
Posts: 32
Location: Invermere, BC
|
| Posted: Mon Jul 19, 2010 7:39 am Post subject: Another update |
|
|
I just learned that there was an evening gust front associated with one of the thunder-boomers and that all three local tandem pilots were unable to reach the landing field: one landed in the swamp, one on the railway tracks, and one at the airport.
_________________
HG: none right now, PG: Niviuk Hook S, Little Cloud Spiruline 18 |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Martin
Joined: 03 Sep 2003
Posts: 680
|
| Posted: Mon Jul 19, 2010 9:31 am Post subject: Re: Another update |
|
|
| midtoad wrote: | | I just learned that there was an evening gust front associated with one of the thunder-boomers and that all three local tandem pilots were unable to reach the landing field: one landed in the swamp, one on the railway tracks, and one at the airport. |
Perhaps the tandem ratings for these instructors should be revoked? They appear to lack the necessary skills to read the weather conditions and are putting their passengers at serious risk simply to rake in their fees?
Martin |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
D5GRVTY
Joined: 06 Nov 2004
Posts: 5
|
| Posted: Mon Jul 19, 2010 7:52 pm Post subject: |
|
|
Or perhaps Martin, when it come to making decisions about weather, no one can predict things with 100% certainty. Perhaps people who heckle from the sidelines, while never having to make these decision almost every day themselves, should refrain from making judgment.
I apologize if you've never ever made a mistake with your flying. Perhaps you should be granted granted the omnipotent rule over all that is free flying in Canada, nay the world. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
solaris
Joined: 20 Oct 2007
Posts: 79
|
| Posted: Mon Jul 19, 2010 8:11 pm Post subject: Re: Day 1 at the Willi: Big Air and Big Distance |
|
|
| midtoad wrote: | Day 1 at the Willi meet in Golden started out with a big crowd, big air, big distance, and carnage.
...
Several had personal bests.
|
I sure had mine!!!  74 KM, 4300 m, just under 4 hours! STOKED!!!
Here is the track:
http://paraplan.ru/forum/modules.php?name=leonardo&op=show_flight&flightID=7599&lang=english
| Quote: |
(I decided to stay on the ground after an early-morning speed-gliding flight with Scott and Tanya, and Diane and Raśl in full-size PGs). |
It is actually Tonya 
My first foot launch speed riding off upper launch after an hour hike. It was absolutely awesome!!! Thanks Diane and Scott for waiting for me on a hiking trail and even carrying my speed wing for me for a while 
_________________
www.skycountry.ca
 |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Rob Samplonius
Joined: 29 Aug 2003
Posts: 794
Location: Mission, BC
|
| Posted: Mon Jul 19, 2010 10:00 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Quote: | Or perhaps Martin, when it come to making decisions about weather, no one can predict things with 100% certainty. Perhaps people who heckle from the sidelines, while never having to make these decision almost every day themselves, should refrain from making judgment.
I apologize if you've never ever made a mistake with your flying. Perhaps you should be granted granted the omnipotent rule over all that is free flying in Canada, nay the world. |
Lets see Martin has a stack of World Records, flies in one of the most challenging areas in North America (Eastern Washington), has flown for 30 years plus, has more hours than a lot of powered pilots, and you don't think he's qualified to pass judgement on stupidity.
It is stupidity that he is passing judgement on. It doesn't take long to learn that in Golden when you see Cu Nimbs the odds of a gust front rolling through at some point in the day are very high. It also doesn't take a genius to figure out that landing a tandem passenger in the swamp isn't going to be good for business. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
solaris
Joined: 20 Oct 2007
Posts: 79
|
| Posted: Tue Jul 20, 2010 7:52 am Post subject: |
|
|
| Rob Samplonius wrote: | | Quote: | Or perhaps Martin, when it come to making decisions about weather, no one can predict things with 100% certainty. Perhaps people who heckle from the sidelines, while never having to make these decision almost every day themselves, should refrain from making judgment.
I apologize if you've never ever made a mistake with your flying. Perhaps you should be granted granted the omnipotent rule over all that is free flying in Canada, nay the world. |
Lets see Martin has a stack of World Records, flies in one of the most challenging areas in North America (Eastern Washington), has flown for 30 years plus, has more hours than a lot of powered pilots, and you don't think he's qualified to pass judgement on stupidity.
It is stupidity that he is passing judgement on. It doesn't take long to learn that in Golden when you see Cu Nimbs the odds of a gust front rolling through at some point in the day are very high. It also doesn't take a genius to figure out that landing a tandem passenger in the swamp isn't going to be good for business. |
I was there all day. And I flew. When tandems launched late in the evening, the sky was the least promising any troubles at all, it was the mid day when everyone was wondering if those Cues will explode or not. And all 3 tandem guys did a good job, noone is hurt, and passengers are happy!
_________________
www.skycountry.ca
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Martin
Joined: 03 Sep 2003
Posts: 680
|
| Posted: Tue Jul 20, 2010 8:51 am Post subject: |
|
|
Gee Rob, Thanks for the support but....
Yes, I do my fare share of making stupid decisions. Thing is, I'm the only one that will have to pay for a bad call. I don't think I'm doing too badly with my success rate but with age my tolerance for risk is getting to be a pretty big motivator to staying safe.
With my head stuffed up my ass (I'm sure plenty would pay to see that?), I know the tandem pilots made a bad call because they didn't make the LZ and from Stewart's report a gust front occurred. The dynamics of weather in the Rockies is amazing... and something to be respected.
Now to my close personal friend "D5GRVTY".... "Heckling from the sidelines" is the whole purpose of the forum  Your right, you can never be a 100% right on a judgment call. Pilots regularly have to manage events of less then perfect conditions. Risk management is what the game is all about. We all do the best we can to avoid becoming a statistic with everyday above ground being a bonus! Tandem pilots owe it to the public to have a much higher standard, cuz its somebody else's neck that is on the line.
Oh, one other thing "D5GRVTY", at least I use my name with my post (with one exception.... if I've been drinking. Then my alter ego "comrade" alters my signature... but you still know who's posting )....
Fly safe,
Comrade Martin |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
windswept
Joined: 04 Sep 2003
Posts: 143
Location: Richmond, BC
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Rob Samplonius
Joined: 29 Aug 2003
Posts: 794
Location: Mission, BC
|
| Posted: Tue Jul 20, 2010 10:48 am Post subject: |
|
|
Re the 3 tandems that got hit with the gust front. The pilot who landed at the airport at least landed an aircraft at a designated place for landing aircraft. Not a problem. The pilot landing at the rail yard, Ok so it is an alternative LZ if things don't go well.
But the guy landing in the swamp? Nothing good to be said about that one as far as I can tell. What made that the only option? |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
D5GRVTY
Joined: 06 Nov 2004
Posts: 5
|
| Posted: Tue Jul 20, 2010 11:09 am Post subject: |
|
|
I thought this forum was to discuss free flying topics on the west coast, not to burn people at the stake.
That's why I had a problem with your post. You took a single incident, and passed immediate judgement on a group of pilots. No background information, past incidents, not even direct knowledge of the conditions at the time.
| Quote: | | Your right, you can never be a 100% right on a judgment call |
Those tandem pilots mitigate risk for a living. I'm sure that not a single one of them wanted to be dealing with a gust front. If by your own admission, you can never be 100% right, and this happened to be the one rare occasions when they were wrong, why are you calling for their licences to be revoked?
You're right, commercial flying should be held to a higher standard, and perhaps those pilots aren't meeting that standard. However I'm not going to take a single incident and use that to pass judgement. I'm thankful we don't live in a system that works that way.
Oh yea, and sorry for not adding my name to the post, certainly not my intention to hide behind a username. I'll be sure to put it on all future posts. In the same light, I'd expect that when you're both in Golden this summer, you'll have no problem telling Hugo and his coworkers, right to their faces, that because they made a stupid decision on that one day, they probably shouldn't be doing tandems.
Greg Hemingway
(Someone who knows nothing about managing risk in a commercial flying environment...) |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Martin
Joined: 03 Sep 2003
Posts: 680
|
| Posted: Tue Jul 20, 2010 11:42 am Post subject: |
|
|
| D5GRVTY wrote: |
Oh yea, and sorry for not adding my name to the post, certainly not my intention to hide behind a username. I'll be sure to put it on all future posts |
Gregg, thought it was you.
Here is where why I posted the comments. Last year plenty of stories came back from Golden (and nearby locations) where mother nature was being ignored. At face value, it looked liked it was a continuance of what happened last year.
I don't think the average pilot can really get his head around just how serious things can get when there is even the slightest suggestion of thunderstorm activity. Think about how many GA incidents involve pushing weather?
Sure a single incident is not that big a deal... but then again it was 3 incidents, all in one event.
Of course, I'm a coward and dislike the mountains... I like the flat lands where I can see the weather coming!
BTW, If I was there in person, I would have no trouble bring it up with the pilots involved, especially if the weather had obvious signs of trouble. Hopefully this thread has its value (and not just a snipe from the weeds) when it comes to pointing out the responsibility tandem pilots have to their paying passengers?
Martin |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
PeteMac
Joined: 20 Jul 2010
Posts: 1
|
| Posted: Wed Jul 21, 2010 10:39 am Post subject: Re: Clarification from Golden Tandem Pilots |
|
|
| midtoad wrote: | | I just learned that there was an evening gust front associated with one of the thunder-boomers and that all three local tandem pilots were unable to reach the landing field: one landed in the swamp, one on the railway tracks, and one at the airport. |
Midtoad, I thought that single malt I poured you the other night was a little much. It seems to have blurred your perception of the facts.
Firstly, we don't consider our prestine Columbia Wetlands a swamp. In high water the Columbia River fills in to form bodies of water known as sloughs. A swamp by Albertan terms might be the perfect place for a drill rig!
Secondly, we all landed in the wetlands, one walking distance to the train yard, the others 15 and 45 minute walk to the Eco Adventure Ranch(LZ). No one landed at the airport. Winds on launch were light westerly. Conditions were not threatening, some cloud development but nothing serious.(visually 70km north and 30km south) We all soared around launch for 5-10 minutes then headed out to the LZ. It's here we did encounter a 60km/hr southerly gust front. I see from your posts you all have your opinions on where we should have landed. When moving backwards at 15km/hr you want to keep all your options open. Even if the LZ was possible it would be a poor choice, there is a washhouse and a large row of trees at the north end. One would be fully committed with no escape. The wetlands have large areas of grassland mixed with sloughs. The grasslands are a soft surface. The grass can be up to 4 ft high some with water some without. The grasslands also provide a resistance layer to the wind. This is important because on landing when the wing comes down it will act like a kite and drag you backwards. This is what makes the airport a poor choice. Dealing with a possible collapse over the runway followed by a lesson in kite dragging. Not my idea of safety.
I was the only pilot to catch a bit of water, from high up the grassland looked dry but inside of 100 ft I could see water. I had instructed my passenger on what was likely to happen with regards to dragging and the water. It took about 5 yards to get the wing under control. we both landed safely but slightly wet from the foot of standing water. I think all three of us pilots made the correct safe landing choice based on the given conditions.
Last year( during the comps) we witnessed three separate gust front incidences from the ground. In all of those cases the danger seemed quite apparent. Some pilots actually enjoyed a couple of them. What was interesting though was the decision making. Most hangliders fixated on the LZ and had severe crashes. One flew south from altitude and outran the wind. One landed in the Columbia River. The paragliders had interesting choices. One got blown up the gravel pit over a subdivision and crashed into the ball diamond. One landed at the airport. A few landed in the wetlands. It was only luck that no one was seriously injured.
I think we all tend to get fixated on the regular LZ when safer options are available. Let's face it I haven't heard of too many hangliders getting injured when landing in water at the Splashdown in Invermere.
As for the gust front that got us. It originated some 70-90 km away. I saw the way the cell developed on satellite image (Environment Canada) later that evening. The storm was probably 30kms in diameter. Had we known this info I'm sure it would have influenced our decision. The real time usage of this info is presently not possible because images are 30 minutes apart and tend to be delayed between 60 and 90 minutes.
I know with the information we had we all would make the same decision again. I hope this allows you to have the facts of the situation. You can now make up your own opinions and judge us how you see fit.
Peter MacLaren
Altitude Adventures Safety Officer
P.S. Midtoad: Drag the bag man! |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
|
|
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
You cannot attach files in this forum
You can download files in this forum
|
|
FAQ
Search
Memberlist
Usergroups
Register
Profile
Log in to check your private messages
Log in
